May I just say it is not the first time Fine Gael have had to step aside for Blaney.
On a lighter note, as the father of the House, may I say that I remember the last father of the House before me. If he were here this evening he would not have taken the attitude that his son has taken.

In regard to this debate, in a sense it is a cause of wonder that we are debating whether there should be confidence in this Government and that that appears to be related almost entirely, if not solely, to the recent scandals, scams or allegations of such that have been made in the financial world all around us - in semi-State boards, private boards and so on. These have not yet been proven. Nor has there been any proof yet adduced to connect the Government or their Ministers with any wrongdoing that may emerge as a result of the tribunals and investigations going on. Though these scandals have not been proven it looks fairly likely that some of them will be proven. On the other hand there has been no evidence of Government or ministerial involvement. Again due to persistent media and reportage of those making the allegations, innuendos, it would appear that there is a perception of guilt on the part of or in relation to Ministers and/or the Taoiseach as the case may be; a perception.
One of the dangers I see emerging from all of this is that perceptions can destabilise Government, diminish respect for this House and every Member of it. Generally speaking we ourselves have been our worst enemies, as Members of this Parliament, over the years in adding to that concept popularly put around: oh sure, they are all the [584] same. Well, they are not all the same because, if they were all the same, we would not be debating anything here this evening; we would all be in the same boat. Naturally we would not start fighting about the boat or its nature if we were all the same.
On the so-called scandals, and the allegations of scandals and scams - again perhaps I am being unfair - but I do feel that, not being in Government, or sufficiently close to Government to know what is the scene at present, what it has been in the recent past, or indeed over the past ten to 20 years since I was in Government, Ministers, under whose jurisdiction boards have been established - were I in their place - even if only out of curiosity would like to have known fairly frequently what was going on. That has not been demonstrated fairly clearly to be the case. It would appear from what I have been hearing from the Government side this evening - and I am sure if the Opposition were in Government they would be telling us the same thing - that they have given freedom to those boards they have appointed in order that they may the better compete commercially with the private sector or with such boards in other countries in international trade. Perhaps that is the answer.
I am not passing judgment. I am not seeking to pass judgment. I do not believe we should be wasting our time - and it is a waste of time - other than to correct allegations that have not been proved or to put it to the public that, as yet, these are only allegations, that we should await the outcome of the investigations and tribunals before we start pointing the finger and accusing this, that or the other person of wrongdoing. If and when those investigations show that any people, whether inside or outside this House, in Government or in Opposition, have any connection with them, then they should be dealt with thoroughly, completely, properly, justly but, above all, that they will be exposed.
My concern about voting confidence in this Government has little to do with the news-making scandals of these past [585] weeks. Rather do I go back over some period to examine this Government's performance, to examine it from the point of view of the circumstances prevailing in this country, regardless of interest rates, balance of payments deficits and all the things that have been properly trotted out by Government spokesmen as their achievements. Despite all of these - and they have painted a very good picture from the material at their disposal - what we do have to keep in mind - and this applies to all the parties in the House perhaps with the exception of The Workers' Party who I do not think really existed at the time about which I am speaking - is that we started borrowing in 1972. It is very interesting that the Minister whom I think was mainly responsible for that at the time is now the Leader of the Progressive Democrats, the present Minister for Industry and Commerce. He began in 1972 on the basis that, because of the oil crisis, we could not run our current budget and balance the books. We had an election in 1973 won by a Coalition who, in the following four years, in addition to the couple of millions of pounds that Deputy Desmond O'Malley and his then Government in 1972 might have borrowed, ran up a debt on current spending of 6 billion. That was the figure for the first four or five years of our spending spree; the rakes progress had started. In the following election in 1977 Fianna Fil had their largest ever majority. Lo and behold, from 1977 to 1981 we doubled the national debt, again on current spending, not balancing our books. I might add that up to 1972 in the history of this parliament we had never budgeted for a deficit. We had never budgeted for a deficit in the 13 years in which I was a Minister in a Fianna Fil Government. It was unheard of. We began in a small way in 1972 but, by the year 1977, we were 6 billion in the red. By the year 1981 we were 12 billion in the red. Between a short term of a Fianna Fil Government and another Coalition, up to 1987, our debt had increased to 25 billion, with not a thing to show for it because it was all spent on housekeeping. [586] That figure of 25 billion is today 27 billion-plus. It will be wished away by telling us that it is a lesser percentage of GNP by far than it was ten years ago.
The fact is we still owe more than 27 billion and we have nothing to show for it except cut after cut, a diminution of the services to our people and a rising debt. Call it a percentage of what you will, it does not add up to proper government or good government. It ill behoves those in Government to castigate the Opposition about it, and it ill behoves the main Opposition party to castigate the Government about our present economic situation. All together were responsible for it - the rake's progress, the elections by auction. We have not had a Government properly elected since 1969. The dog was fed with a bit of his own tail in every election since then. Governments were put out rather than Governments returned. By auction we did it and this is the result.
In the early eighties there were 60,000 people unemployed; the figure now is nearly 260,000 and rising. Half a million of our young people have gone in the same decade and work is not available for those coming on the market. Surely we should be talking about unemployment, emigration and our incapacity to rectify the debts which we incurred for no good purpose in previous years. We must try to work ourselves out of those problems rather than borrow further. We have been trying to borrow our way out of our problems.
I look at the Government and ask how can I have confidence in them. Then I look at the other side and ask what confidence I could have in any other concoction. That is the dilemma of the public. We have all contributed by abusing each other in all sorts of little ways, aided and abetted by the media who gleefully tack on to anything we say about each other. In the eyes of the public we are all the same. An election in the morning would not give the public any great glee because they will look as I am looking and ask where we will get a Government that will be any better or worse or do any more or any less than at [587] present. That is the perception outside. We deserve that perception and we have contributed largely to it, not only by the wrongdoings in our economics and in our financial operations but in our abuse of each other.
We must consider what we might have done about this and what we still can do about it. The Government, instead of puffing out the chest and boasting about the good lines they are getting from the international agencies praising them for their achievements in relation to the balance of payments, bringing down inflation and interest rates and so on, should remember that this is being done at the expense of the public and of our emigrants. Whatever the international agencies may think about our performance, our Government should not feel in any way proud of their achievements when they are at the expense of our people. Government and Parliament must be about people's wellbeing. We should not be proud of ourselves in that we have been chasing them out for the past ten years and cutting expenditure on health, roads and education to bring about the improvements which are praised by these international agencies. We should ask if this is the correct way. Are we achieving anything really worth while? Are we not deluding ourselves when we hear Government spokespeople saying that we have to get inflation and interest rates down and the balance of payments in credit before we can begin to provide jobs for our people? Where will those people be by then? Where are they today? More of them would have left were it not for the recession which has hit our nearest island and the USA as well. We have nothing to be proud of in our performance as a Government or Parliament over the past 20 years or more.
This vote of confidence was brought about for the wrong reasons and is being discussed in the light of the wrong reasons, but it is nevertheless a vote of confidence. How can anybody in his [588] sanity think in terms of a vote of confidence or no confidence in a Government when the whole scene is overshadowed by the internal strife of the components of that Government? The Progressive Democrats are almost writhing about on the floor, throwing fits and tantrums, as to whether or not they can vote confidence in their Government, the coalition Government of which they are part. If they cannot vote confidence in that Government they will be casting a vote of no confidence in themselves. Many on the Opposition benches would say they should do so. I do not disagree, but that is neither here nor there. It is ludicrous that this major debate is being overshadowed by the little men of that little coalition wrestling together to see who will come out best at the end of this week. Regarding the Progressive Democrats, I will not mention any names because I believe it is not fair to mention names of people outside the House.

In this case that person will have had his say and no doubt will be afforded by the media generally more say than anybody over there or here. I refer to the ayatollah who is not in this House but who controls the Progressive Democrats. It is an extraordinary situation. A man who is not a Deputy is calling the shots as to what the Government will do with the coalition and whether they will survive. It is bloody ludicrous. The little ayatollah should be told where he gets off.
Probably the most serious aspect of all in facing up to the confidence vote in this Government has to do with the national question, the North of Ireland, the Six Counties, our occupied territory, our war-torn corner of this country. We have a Government who are collaborating with the occupiers, who have done so many U-turns, starting with the hunger strikes and the attitude towards the hunger strikers. When they could have done something they did nothing. I condemned the Anglo-Irish Agreement on [589] the night Deputy FitzGerald signed it. Within minutes Fianna Fil through their spokesman condemned it and said it was copperfastening partition. Now they operate it and the only excuse I have got, inside or outside this House, is that because a previous Government had come to some arrangement they felt bound by it. If that was the case we would be still 32 counties in UK occupation. We would never have got out of that if some sort of Government had done that deal before our time. We would still have the Governor General in the Park and would be still paying the land annuities across the water. We would still have the soldiers and we would have the Navy in Lough Swilly and in Cork if there was any basis for the justification which has been given to me for operating the Anglo-Irish Agreement.
Extradition has been a disaster for Fianna Fil. They were totally against it but now they operate it. Dessie Ellis is going through it at present and he should not even be in England. That again is one of the problems that I face. There is section 31, not that it matters a damn whether it is there or not because if the gurus of the media, whether national television, radio or newspapers, wish to keep people out of the news they can do it without section 31. Fianna Fil were committed to removing section 31 and they operate it as if it was their baby for all time.
On these matters, the collaboration with and the operation of the Anglo-Irish Agreement and the continuing bloodshed and death as I have said time without number in this House and I repeat it again, will continue so long as there is an occupation force in the country claiming jurisdiction over part of our land. Do not have any doubt about it. I wish it could be otherwise but that is the way it is, and the first people we have to convince of that is the Government of the day in this House whether it is this Government or another. If the Government, speaking on behalf of the parliament of this nation, are not convinced, how then can we expect the British to be [590] convinced that the best thing they could do is to find a way to get out of their occupation of our country and give us the hope of having the beginnings of peace in our land. Without that we will never have it and our own Government are the people who are more to blame than are the British. How can we expect the British to see our point of view from an Irish standpoint if our own Government do not see it from that standpoint. And they do not see it that way. They want to continue collaborating with alleged security forces. If they were put in the dock, as are these financial people who are being investigated at the moment, all those here who have collaborated with them - and most have - would be ashamed of themselves. The shoot to kill people are still there. All the black-guarding that ever went on is still going on. The discrimination in jobs is unbelievable today, so much so that I was shocked when I saw some of the up-to-date records from the fair employment agencies up there. I was literally shocked because I thought the changes that had taken place with one man one vote, the prorogation of Stormont, had brought about some improvement instead of which the discrimination in jobs is bad if not worse today then it has been at any time in the last 70 years.
Those are the people we are dealing with. Those are the people we are treating as if they would be reasonable. They are not and they never will be reasonable while Britain maintains her presence and her assurance that she will remain there as long as the majority, a contrived majority, wish it. Those people cannot even talk to us for the simple reason that by so doing they would be regarded as committing treason because unionism is not divisible. It cannot be compromised. The very act of sitting down to talk about the real problem, which is partition and unionism, is an admission that unionism is in fact capable of being talked about and therefore a concession by those on the Unionist side that it is something that can be dispensed with.
[591] That is the way it is and that is the way it will continue to be so long as we are the gutless lot that we are here in this House who are prepared to play along with any old game without facing up to the realities, biting the bullet, and telling the British that we and they must find a way for them to get out of our country and leave it to the people of Ireland, North and South, to govern themselves in the manner of their choice without interference from any outside power in the future. I believe the day that Britain decides to follow that road, since no other one will work - and God knows they have tried many - is the day we will begin to get together as we have never done before and true peace and, ultimately, true unity will exist.
I will conclude with those thoughts and the others that went before, mainly on our economy and on our finances and some local parochial matters as well like the airport we never got in Letterkenny because we were so concerned about putting it in Derry that we did not give a damn about Donegal, or the new RTC Bill which would float our RTCs into orbit at the wishes of the vast majority of the principals of those colleges in cahoots with the Minister who is herself by profession part of them. She is doing a damnedly bad job if she does this. They are good institutions doing great work and they are part and parcel of our local authorities. We hear lip service given to local control. Here we are taking away the most vital thing that has been provided in the last 25 years and taking it out of the control of the local authorities and restoring it to the central control back down in Marlborough Street. It is a bad day for Ireland, a bad day for third level education, and a bad day for this Government from which three years ago I got an assurance that this would not happen. I thought I had convinced them that it should not happen but apparently those that are seeking to be leaders of the Fianna Fil Party in the future are now too strong to be curbed and they push on their own way. Thank you, and through you thank you to the Ceann Comhairle [592] for standing up for the rights of a minority Deputy in this House.



